Solar Power Found to Harm the Environment
Clean energy. Green energy. Harness the sun for the generation of electric power.
Now we learn of negative environmental effects of certain solar power technologies, as we simultaneously learn that President Obama is committing $1.85Billion of unspent stimulus money to that cause.
In his weekly radio address on Saturday, our “spend your way to prosperity” leader announced that he was committing $1.85Billion to the construction of solar power facilities, primarily a “concentrating solar power” (CSP) facility in Arizona, and to the construction of a solar panel manufacturing plant in an old Chrysler facility in Colorado. He promised that these investments will create as many as 5000 new jobs (that’s $370,000 of additional deficit per job!).
And it behooves us to note that the CSP facility that will receive by far the greatest portion of benefit from these monies is being constructed by Abengoa Solar, Inc, a unit of Abengoa SA, a Spanish renewable energy and engineering company. Apparently since Spain has curtailed its subsidies for renewable energy, their companies are coming to the United States to get subsidized.
This announcement comes on the heels of the release of a report by Obama’s immigration nemesis Jon Kyl (R-AZ) discussing the negative environmental impact of CSP facilities. These facilities require a very large volume of water to clean and cool the equipment, and water is a precious commodity in Arizona. According to that report,
Arizona lawmakers have an obligation to protect the state’s limited water supply and put its water resources to their highest and best use,” the report states. “Using Arizona’s water supplies to produce conventional CSP that will most likely be exported out of state does neither.
And
Despite the seriousness of [the state's] water constraints, solar power companies have largely ignored water concerns and continue to propose water-intensive conventional CSP plants in Arizona.”
A total of 33 applications for the construction of solar powerplants are being considered for Arizona by the Bureau of Land Management, of which 29 would use some manner of CSP technology. The 33 facilities, if all approved, would cover 452,000 acres of federal land. The majority of that land is in areas that have been identified as some of the most “water challenged” parts of the state. Kyl’s report acknowledges that not all these facilities will be constructed,
but the potential impact on water resources is alarming.
We find the hypocrisy, driven by ideology, appalling. We can’t drill for fossil fuels on federal lands because of the risk of spills or blowouts (which we know how to mitigate on land), or because of the risk to wildlife and groundwater. Environmentalists continue to attack hydraulic fracturing in shale formations for the recovery of oil and gas because of the alleged risk to groundwater. But we can cover over 450,000 acres of federal land with solar panels and suck all the water out of the ground beneath them to keep them clean and cool!
Where would we be if not for Obama and his minions saving the planet?
On this you have my unequivocal agreement. The Spanish are over here in droves trying to dump their failed systems on the American suckers. We talked briefly to their Wind Generator people. Thats why we're talking to the Chinese.(Private Industry not Commie Dot.Gov) They seem to know how to listen to the customer and work to define the product.
I'm sure that PV panels are good for some things. I've got them on an Offshore Meteorological platform out of Galveston for FAA and Navigational Aids. But you do have to clean the "Bird Graffitti" off of them regularly or the lights go out. Perhaps "Avion Excrement Removal Technicians" are a large part of those "Green Jobs" Obama's talking about creating……….
Type of plant is "solar thermal", not photovoltaic. Mirrors focus sunlight on pipes, which heat up. Pumping a working fluid through the pipes transports the heat to essentially a big tank of rocks. The tank contains a heat exchange loop that pumps water into the hot tank, generates steam, which runs a standard steam turbine generator. I don't see how such a plant uses very large quantities of water. It doesn't take a huge amount of water to wash off the mirrors, and the steam loop is closed, so should not need much makeup water.
The mirrors will have to be cleaned regularly and often, bird poop may not be a major issue in AZ but dust will be. A thin layer of dust on the mirrors will reduce their efficiency. I bet it will take a lot of water to wash 452,000 acres of mirrors!
On this you have my unequivocal agreement. The Spanish are over here in droves trying to dump their failed systems on the American suckers. We talked briefly to their Wind Generator people. Thats why we're talking to the Chinese.(Private Industry not Commie Dot.Gov) They seem to know how to listen to the customer and work to define the product.
I'm sure that PV panels are good for some things. I've got them on an Offshore Meteorological platform out of Galveston for FAA and Navigational Aids. But you do have to clean the "Bird Graffitti" off of them regularly or the lights go out. Perhaps "Avion Excrement Removal Technicians" are a large part of those "Green Jobs" Obama's talking about creating……….
Type of plant is "solar thermal", not photovoltaic. Mirrors focus sunlight on pipes, which heat up. Pumping a working fluid through the pipes transports the heat to essentially a big tank of rocks. The tank contains a heat exchange loop that pumps water into the hot tank, generates steam, which runs a standard steam turbine generator. I don't see how such a plant uses very large quantities of water. It doesn't take a huge amount of water to wash off the mirrors, and the steam loop is closed, so should not need much makeup water.
The mirrors will have to be cleaned regularly and often, bird poop may not be a major issue in AZ but dust will be. A thin layer of dust on the mirrors will reduce their efficiency. I bet it will take a lot of water to wash 452,000 acres of mirrors!
Outstanding post, Mike. The fact of the matter is that there is no free lunch where energy is concerned, the government's attempts to pick winners and losers in the marketplace inevitably lead to unintended consequences and disaster and we simply cannot afford the cost of these uneconomic politicized vanity projects.
We are allowing the Left to ruin our economy, and when they are finished we will not have the ability to regain our status as a great nation. They've got to be stopped immediately, or else we will all ruefully wonder why we let them get started in the first place.
Engineering, applied science, is wrought with compromise. There are always consequences to compromise, and the key to successfully applying science is understanding and anticipating those compromises. Our current leadership doesn't understand the science or the consequences, but simply the benefits of the science in an idealized situation.
The real world is not a beaker in a laboratory. We need leaders who understand that.
Outstanding post, Mike. The fact of the matter is that there is no free lunch where energy is concerned, the government's attempts to pick winners and losers in the marketplace inevitably lead to unintended consequences and disaster and we simply cannot afford the cost of these uneconomic politicized vanity projects.
We are allowing the Left to ruin our economy, and when they are finished we will not have the ability to regain our status as a great nation. They've got to be stopped immediately, or else we will all ruefully wonder why we let them get started in the first place.
Engineering, applied science, is wrought with compromise. There are always consequences to compromise, and the key to successfully applying science is understanding and anticipating those compromises. Our current leadership doesn't understand the science or the consequences, but simply the benefits of the science in an idealized situation.
The real world is not a beaker in a laboratory. We need leaders who understand that.
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Maybe Arizona doesn't have much water, but it has sunlight and that is what solar
energy is all about. Also where there is very little water there aren't many birds unlike the Galveston area. Germany and much of Europe are far ahead of us with solar
power. They've done it and they don't have much sun in winter. Why can't we? Let's get with it. I plan to put solar panels on my house like they do in southern Turkey. That's even better.
"Germany and much of Europe" did it by heavily subsidizing the industry and burdening the populace with heavy taxation, nearly destroying their economy in the process. With our economy in the shape it's in, is that really the direction you want us to go?
Maybe Arizona doesn't have much water, but it has sunlight and that is what solar
energy is all about. Also where there is very little water there aren't many birds unlike the Galveston area. Germany and much of Europe are far ahead of us with solar
power. They've done it and they don't have much sun in winter. Why can't we? Let's get with it. I plan to put solar panels on my house like they do in southern Turkey. That's even better.
"Germany and much of Europe" did it by heavily subsidizing the industry and burdening the populace with heavy taxation, nearly destroying their economy in the process. With our economy in the shape it's in, is that really the direction you want us to go?
It is easy to see the concern for water usage in a dry climate. Makeup water consumption in any steam plant depends on the percentage of water (condensate) returned to be converted to steam. Contaminated condensate is dumped or stored to be cleaned at a later time. One hundred percent makeup is required while the condensate is being dumped or cleaned. Some amount of steam used to operate equipment , and the associated condensate is not available to be be returned. However, the biggest use of water is in the coolant used to condense the steam at the exit of the last stage of the steam turbine. This coolant must be cooled in a cooling tower before being used again. Makeup cooling water is a sigficant usage of water for a steam plant. Fin fans (large radiators) in a closed cooling water system can be used in the place of cooling towers where cooling water makeup water usage is a concern. The disadvantage is a higher cost of operation fin fans. See http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/power_plant_sys… for more information.
It is easy to see the concern for water usage in a dry climate. Makeup water consumption in any steam plant depends on the percentage of water (condensate) returned to be converted to steam. Contaminated condensate is dumped or stored to be cleaned at a later time. One hundred percent makeup is required while the condensate is being dumped or cleaned. Some amount of steam used to operate equipment , and the associated condensate is not available to be be returned. However, the biggest use of water is in the coolant used to condense the steam at the exit of the last stage of the steam turbine. This coolant must be cooled in a cooling tower before being used again. Makeup cooling water is a sigficant usage of water for a steam plant. Fin fans (large radiators) in a closed cooling water system can be used in the place of cooling towers where cooling water makeup water usage is a concern. The disadvantage is a higher cost of operation fin fans. See http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/power_plant_sys… for more information.
Just some food for thought. I just looked into putting solar panels (PV) on my house since between the state and Federal governments I could get 80% of the cost back. Even with that, the ROI of my portion was very low. It would take over 10 years to pay back my investment and that is without accounting for the lost interest if that money had stayed invested. If I included the interest lost (at 3%) it would take about 16 years to recover the cost of my portion (all this is at today's cost of electricity).
In other words, even if fellow taxpayers paid 80% of the cost it was still a bad investment.
And Obama wants to do that on a national scale!
Just some food for thought. I just looked into putting solar panels (PV) on my house since between the state and Federal governments I could get 80% of the cost back. Even with that, the ROI of my portion was very low. It would take over 10 years to pay back my investment and that is without accounting for the lost interest if that money had stayed invested. If I included the interest lost (at 3%) it would take about 16 years to recover the cost of my portion (all this is at today's cost of electricity).
In other words, even if fellow taxpayers paid 80% of the cost it was still a bad investment.
And Obama wants to do that on a national scale!
Follow up to previous message.
I also looked at putting up solar panels to generate power for a production plant where I worked (before retiring) and to run this one plant from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM (max. solar energy time of the day) it would take 26 square miles of solar panels. That does not run the plant more than 4 hours day. To run the plant all day long would cover the whole state with panels.
When you cover large areas (unless it is over an existing building or structure) you basically kill off all life below the panels. Without sunlight, the living things die. I did not get into the cost of running this system, such as washing the panels, repairs, replacement costs, etc.
We need to consider the proper application of these technologies and forgo the emotional reasons without considering the whole picture. What impact on the environment does manufacturing and disposing of these panels have?
Follow up to previous message.
I also looked at putting up solar panels to generate power for a production plant where I worked (before retiring) and to run this one plant from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM (max. solar energy time of the day) it would take 26 square miles of solar panels. That does not run the plant more than 4 hours day. To run the plant all day long would cover the whole state with panels.
When you cover large areas (unless it is over an existing building or structure) you basically kill off all life below the panels. Without sunlight, the living things die. I did not get into the cost of running this system, such as washing the panels, repairs, replacement costs, etc.
We need to consider the proper application of these technologies and forgo the emotional reasons without considering the whole picture. What impact on the environment does manufacturing and disposing of these panels have?
Following up again on another related subject.
The same goes for electric vehicles. What is the total impact of these vehicles on the world? When we consider the manufacture of the components, the disposal of the components, the pollution concentrated at a power house rather than widely dispersed, the lack of a grid that can handle much more power, etc. Ask the folks in the Northeast (with the high temps today) if they want more brown outs due to grid overload? When people come home with an electric vehicle and they all plug in about the same time each day (which they need to stay plugged in for hours) the grid will collapse.
We need to work on all forms of energy to supply our needs, but we need to do it smart and use data to make decisions and not just emotion.
Following up again on another related subject.
The same goes for electric vehicles. What is the total impact of these vehicles on the world? When we consider the manufacture of the components, the disposal of the components, the pollution concentrated at a power house rather than widely dispersed, the lack of a grid that can handle much more power, etc. Ask the folks in the Northeast (with the high temps today) if they want more brown outs due to grid overload? When people come home with an electric vehicle and they all plug in about the same time each day (which they need to stay plugged in for hours) the grid will collapse.
We need to work on all forms of energy to supply our needs, but we need to do it smart and use data to make decisions and not just emotion.